Women in Customer Success Podcast

141 - The 50/50 Career Rule: How to Grow Without Burning Out with Stephanie Robinson

Marija Skobe-Pilley Episode 141

Text us your questions and thoughts!

Leadership doesn't require a title but emerges when you inspire others, lead by example, and deliver value. We’re excited to welcome Stephanie Robinson, Global Account Management Leader at Maze, to the show. In this inspiring conversation, she shares insights from her career journey from Toronto to Amsterdam, highlighting how remote work, cultural awareness, and mentorship shaped her success.

Her fascinating journey from a small Toronto startup to managing global enterprise accounts across Europe showcases a powerful career strategy: the 50/50 rule. Every career move should offer 50% mastery (what you already excel at) and 50% challenge (what stretches you to grow). This balanced approach prevents both stagnation and burnout, while keeping you engaged and fostering professional development.

Having worked remotely long before the pandemic at companies like InVision, Stephanie also shares crucial insights into creating effective personal systems.

We discuss:

  • The importance of leading by example and being self-sufficient
  • Cultural differences in work styles between North America and Europe 
  • Why being adaptable and understanding diverse team dynamics is essential for any leader
  • Why women should confidently negotiate compensation and know their market value
  • How maintaining relationships with mentors provides crucial support throughout your career
  • How to quantify your achievements to better articulate your value during negotiations


From leadership guidance to negotiation tactics to CS tips and tricks, this episode will provide you with insights, direction, and support no matter where you are in your career. Enjoy!




💚 This episode is brought to you by Deployflow: https://deployflow.co/


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👉 Follow Stephanie Robinson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sjmrobinson/

👉 Learn more about Deployflow & P-Suite by Deployflow and get a quick squad estimate at: https://deployflow.co/p-suite/

👉 Learn more about Maze, the user research platform that makes products work for people: https://maze.co/

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Women in Customer Success Podcast is the first women-only podcast for Customer Success professionals, where remarkable ladies of Customer Success connect, inspire and champion each other.


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Host Marija Skobe-Pilley


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Speaker 1:

You don't need the title to be a leader. When you inspire people, you lead by example, you do the right thing, you take care of, you know your internal peers, you take care of the customer, you will be seen as a leader and the title just comes with it. And I think when you work remotely, you create different levels of skills of like being self-sufficient, creating a system Like you have to create a system that works for staff, because you need to know where your bookmarks are, like where you find information. I always say if you can't find in 10 minutes, we either have to build it or we have to make it more accessible. So let's figure that out, but don't suffer in silence, and that's really easy to do in remote.

Speaker 1:

Sometimes my value is not what I know, like what we should do, but what we shouldn't do. Have a direction that you're running towards, like be very like reflective and self-aware, because I do think that when you're hungry in your career at a young age, it's really easy to say yes to everything. Another great mentor, he said stuff every time that you make a career decision should always be 50% mastery and 50% challenge.

Speaker 3:

Hello and welcome to the new episode of Women in Customer Success podcast Today it's again a very special episode because I am talking to a very special person whom I have met, probably a year ago at one concierge executive retreat and we really connected and I knew I wanted everybody, all of you, to get to know her.

Speaker 2:

She's an incredible young lady. Currently she's a global account manager leader at Maze and she's Stephanie Robinson. Stephanie, welcome to the show.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much. I appreciate it, and thanks for the kind words. I'm really excited to be here.

Speaker 2:

Stéphanie, let's get to know you a bit better. Firstly, tell us where are you calling from.

Speaker 1:

I'm calling from Amsterdam, netherlands, beautiful.

Speaker 2:

Okay, what is your favorite Dutch food?

Speaker 1:

Oh gosh, I might alienate a lot of people here my favorite Dutch food. What I would recommend for people to try when they're here, to make it diplomatic is a bitterballen, because it's very traditional Dutch, so essentially they're little deep fried balls, but then they have the veal inside. It's really good, especially on a nice kind of warm fall day.

Speaker 2:

Speaking about recommendations, is there any particular book that you recently read that really changed some of your ideas about life, a career, et cetera, or any maybe business related book you would highly recommend to the audience?

Speaker 1:

It's a really good question. I would say that these are recent and I'm sure they probably have account for how many people say like the challenger customer. So I won't say that. But two books that I would recommend that kind of changed my career, so I'll maybe do a career one and then a personal one is there's a book called Coaching to Performance and when I stepped into a leadership role, my manager and mentor at the time, daniel Sanchez-Grad, essentially offered this book to me to read before I started leading my peers and then eventually my team at Envision, and essentially they teach you all about coaching because it's very difficult, it's very actually hard to do and they follow a model called like the GROW model, which is like what's the goal of this particular situation or interaction? Or you know what you want to do with an account, what's the reality, like take out the bias, what do we know right now, and then what are the options and you know what's the wheel around behind it. So there's a little bit of a formula so you can get your CSMs or your support agents, whoever you're managing to, essentially get them to create the wheels for themselves, as opposed to, I think, a lot of us in CS who have been in CS for a long time, we probably know a lot of the answers. But in reality it's really a false premise to have all the answers for your team, because as you go up the leadership scale, the further you are away from the work. So creating this model of getting them to and coaching them to the answers gives them a lot of empowerment, but it also creates a lot of great feelings for them as well and growth for them.

Speaker 1:

So I would say coaching to performance, especially if you're, you know, a new time manager or you know you've led teams for multiple years. It's such a great, easy for to do and I always have a little sticky on my desk whenever I'm talking to my team. And then the other ones is leaders that eat last. So of course everybody knows Simon Sinek, I hope, but he has so many books starting with Y et cetera. But like, leaders that Eat Last is also another great leadership book and it's all about again serving your teams and kind of creating the environment for them to really thrive, that psychological safety. So those are two that I would say are must reads for anybody in any leadership role, regardless if you're a CS or not.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, wonderful recommendation. I think I have a red coach in performance. I'm just checking my bookshelf. I should probably have it somewhere there and Sano Saneck is awesome. But you've been speaking a little bit about leadership and I know we will not go all straight into that because there are so many other things I want to ask you about your career path, but this is one question that I would like to hear from you now. Yeah, when was the very first time when you saw yourself as a leader?

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's a really good question. There's probably one moment that comes to mind when you asked me that question and again I'll bring it back to Daniel Sanchez-Grindt, because again, that was a really pivotal time in my career and he was such a great mentor and kind of making me the leader that I am today and I was still in IC and essentially we weren't able to get the headcount open for the team lead role at the time that we needed it, and he always mentioned Steph. You don't need the title to be a leader. There are leaders among us and again, the title is just there. But when you inspire people, you lead by example, you do the right thing, you take care of, you know your internal peers, you take care of the customer, you know you will be seen as a leader and the title just comes with it because you can get the title.

Speaker 1:

I think we've all worked for leaders that have a title that maybe you know we may have not looked up to in the past, and there's some people that are lateral to us, where you're like this is amazing, like I want to be able to take this on. Can you teach me about this account plan that you did, or anything like that. So I would say that that was a moment of kind of realizing that one you don't need the title to be a leader. But I also then really wanted both to be doing it and also get the title later on. So that was probably around like right again when I went into the management role at Envision so that was leading the EMEA teams for that company- what a wonderful example.

Speaker 2:

I think that I was a CSM only as well. When I kind of heard about it and in fairness I've never thought about it previously I also always thought, yeah, so one day when you get a title, then you're a leader, then you can be, you know a leader properly. Although I see myself as a leader even as a teenager. You know, I know I don't see friends and groups. I remember that notion of you lead. Firstly, showcase that you're a leader, even for your customers, especially for csm. I think that is incredibly powerful for csm's to understand. Yes, with your customers and internally especially, you are that leader already. Don't wait for the title to start assuming that role. It's so needy. Like that internal leadership and acumen. What do you bring to the table, regardless of the title?

Speaker 1:

at any point of your life? Yeah, 100%. And I would say like I first like maybe it's a little bit like of a backtrack, but I first started my career and I was like one of the first employees at a very small startup in Toronto and you know, I kind of like again became a leader because I had the experience being there and then kind of wanted to take a step back to expand my horizon, to know different parts of businesses and how they operate, because it's very, again, we all know that if you serve marketing persona, if you're in CS, if you're in sales, if you're in support, if you're in a technical account management role, it's all very different. But I would say when I decided to kind of pursue kind of that time period that I was mentioning, when I went into leadership at Envision, it was really like at the point where I felt that I had the right experience to be able to bring value to the team that I would be leading, versus.

Speaker 1:

That was like, again, managing enterprise accounts, managing multiple enterprise accounts, seeing all the different churn reasons, seeing all the different churn reasons, seeing all the different upsell drivers, both leading and lagging indicators. And there was a point in my career where I'm like I've seen a lot and I think I could share both my failures and also my you know my achievements with you know this group of people. So I'd really want to be able to do that and I would say that, yeah, the experience really makes a big difference, because then you feel a lot more confident when you are given that opportunity. So, yeah, I would also add that to that piece too.

Speaker 2:

You mentioned InVision and I'm realizing that in these five years of the podcast, I have interviewed Sydney Strader, who used to be at InVision. I interviewed, first of all, was her mentor, highly praised Julie Prasovsky, who also was in InVision. And now I'm talking to you, which is wonderful. It seems that you know there are so many different correlations and connections with that same company, toronto-based startup, et cetera. So I would like to hear from you now, before and after InVision, like how did you end up being there?

Speaker 1:

and obviously it seemed to be like a pivotal moment in your CS career as well absolutely so I can backtrack like the very first job I got from university to like essentially where I'm at. But I won't spare you all the little like I'll jump to. Like my first role out of university so that was a long time ago, not to date myself was to join these two Iranian brothers, bob and Bijan Baez, because they had an application for events. So essentially if you go to a conference, the old way was you get a big pamphlet with all the program and speakers, the map, and then you'd have to navigate. You know these big conference spaces and trade shows. But they digitalized that into a mobile application. And I actually met them at a career fair for engineers but I said what do I have to lose? Let's go. I can talk to people and I know that I had experience in events. Again, another thing this did like small events at the University of Toronto so I knew how they were set up. I knew you know what would be good elements of an event. So I started there and I learned a lot Like I was there for four years. I was a fifth employee. We were completely bootstrapped so we really had to get super creative on like how we would kind of run the business, eventually led the support teams and sales teams, but I then and I promise I'll get to Envision it's just the build up to it.

Speaker 1:

But then I realized that our model was very transactional because, as you know, events start and they end and then the period in between is planning and again kind of a debrief. So I wanted to like then go into maybe a space that allowed me to get exposure to enterprise level contracts and engagements. And then I got an outreach from a company called Influidip where I worked with Sydney and Julie Persoski and a lot of amazing people based in Toronto. And that was interesting because we had, essentially it was a category creator. We were trying to elevate a new marketing category. So under marketing you have events, demand, gen, seo, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And we wanted to create a category called customer advocacy. So essentially, under marketing, how do you elevate your customers to drive leads and to help again create studies, retention, et cetera. And in that point I was exposed to then the contracts that I wanted. Like I mentioned, I wanted that experience. So I worked with Salesforce, vmware, kind of all the top tech companies in the Bay Area. I was able to get that experience. So I worked with Salesforce, vmware, kind of all the top tech companies in the Bay Area. I was able to get that experience with and then again also be able to manage, you know six-figure contracts from a retention and growth standpoint. And actually Sydney and I were both individual peers and then she became my manager. So we're very close. I actually spoke with her last Friday and then from then on with Influitive it was great to have that experience with like category creation. We were really close with our customers because we were all in it together trying to prove the value of customer marketing, figuring out how to quantify it, figuring out how to elevate the qualitative insights so that we can go to the CMO and ask for more budget or kind of retain the contract.

Speaker 1:

Then Envision came along. So again I kind of got the enterprise experience check and exposure to enterprise companies. And then I realized that you know Flutive was going through some headwinds of kind of retention because it was a category creator. So creating a quantifiable value was really difficult and I did love the account management side, the commercial side of the CS piece. So I moved to Envision where it was a CS role and I joined as an ICCSM.

Speaker 1:

But at that time this was 2017-ish where we had like a 93 growth retention. Like return was not a thing at all, it was just growth, growth, growth, growth growth. And we were all remote. So we were all remote before Corona even happened, so the ways of working was also really interesting. So I wanted to join an all remote company. At that time. I wanted to focus and hone in on my commercial acumen, and Envision was a great place to do that because they were also growing really fast. They were the fastest growing tech startup at one point and then I did that role for a bit and was surrounded by the amazing people that you had just mentioned and really learned a lot.

Speaker 1:

And I think when you work remotely I think everybody knows this now but you work remotely you create different levels of skills, of like being self-sufficient, creating a system. That's why I always tell people when they join Maze or any like you have to create a system that works for staff, because you need to know where your bookmarks are, like where you find information and especially again now there could be a lack of information or too much information. I always say, if you can't find it in 10 minutes, we either have to build it or we have to make it more accessible. So let's figure that out, but don't suffer in silence. And that's really easy to do in remote. But things like that like really helped, I guess, me. And especially when COVID did happen and a lot of people had to transition to this model, we were in a really great position to also help our customers, not from a software perspective but from a life perspective of how to operate in this remote world.

Speaker 1:

But with Envision, again, it was so fast growing. The people were absolutely incredible and after a couple of years there again I got the enterprise contracts, was hitting targets from an upsell account management perspective. Then I asked myself I was like, can I do this, like with multi, like national companies? Again, it was always one step. It was like from transactional type of business to enterprise businesses and it's like, can I do this on a global scale? Like can I go to SAP and just go to all their units or go to an ING with all their regions? Let's test it. So then I got transferred to Amsterdam by Envision and a couple of other key people in the go-to market team to build the infrastructure, the culture, but also manage some of these big accounts, so the INGs, the HSBC, the Lloyds, you name it like we had all, all of them.

Speaker 1:

And then after like that would be the point where I said like, oh, I've seen a lot, like I've been kind of successful Everything I could probably teach you know and like be able to share my again, my failures, my lessons learned, because I've kind of worked my way up to kind of manage all different types of customers, all the way from SMB to, again, large multinational enterprises, and that's when I was like, okay, I can lead like a great team now. And I did that and we did a big project migration. It was insane. But, as we all know, envision unfortunately shut down as of December last year. So you, I probably saw every single CS comp one go through in the four and a half years I was there, all the way from like growth and it was like you know, retention, upsell and adoption. Then it was just upsell and retention, then it became adoption and then it became not, you know, like it was really just a roller coaster, but I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Speaker 1:

Um, envision created the best people, the best environment and even at the time of the rise of Figma, which was ultimately, and some decisions that were made at Envision, sometimes I always tell, when I met Joe, when I joined the Maze team to build the CS function here, I said sometimes my value is not what I know and what we should do, but what we shouldn't do, seeing what are some of those major decisions that may have contributed to the downfall of Envision. So you know I respect everybody. I think we should all be proud of the time that we were at Envision. It did really change my life so that's why I always bring it up. But from then on I got again recruited to join Maze and the question again there's always a question oh, can I build a CS function from scratch, like then? I was like let's see.

Speaker 1:

Then I essentially joined the Maze team, which again all remote company focusing on the user testing space, and then in the last like three years, again we had evolved and rapidly grew and we're at this pivotal moment or we were at the pivotal moment last year where you know our deal sizes were manageable for the CS team to hold everything and I was leading CS and support at that time and me, john Mayhill, as well as my CRO and now CEO, coo and my CEO Joe. We were like you know what, let's trial like an account management function if we were to put like a post-sale again account management team to be partners to CS to help drive strategic conversations, which I love, and also drive the commercials, which I also love. So now it's like can I build a global account management team from scratch? Let's see? So that's where I'm right now. So I know that was a big long tangent, but that's really kind of the evolution of like my career and how I'm here today.

Speaker 2:

Extraordinary career with lots of different and very, very interesting companies under your belt, different types of experiences and different regions as well. So you came to Amsterdam with InVision, you stayed. You're still there with Maze. How is that going? Like, are you? I'm not asking about your plans, I'm thinking of going back but like when you compared two continents in the way that we work. What are some of the main differences, maybe, or cultural differences that you have to think about and you have to adjust to?

Speaker 1:

It's such a great question. So I would say, when I was working in North America with primarily North American customers, yeah, there was a difference between Americans and Canadians and people on the West Coast and the East Coast West Coast a lot more relaxed. They'll, you know, when you ask for a customer meeting or you organize an event, they'll say maybe, you know, just come by. Versus East Coast. It's like I have five minutes between 12 and 12.05, stephanie, make your five minute pitch and let's go. So I would say that those were kind of the things that pop up in my head, and definitely there's a lot more small talk in North America.

Speaker 1:

And then when I came to Europe, it wasn't just, you know, the way that Europe worked, it was like how the French worked in very certain ways.

Speaker 1:

Then let's say, yeah, each and Benelux, then UK and I, and you have all these, I guess, intricacies of culture and maybe history that has like different ways of working, different styles of working that you really have to take into account, especially if you're managing global accounts.

Speaker 1:

Like, yes, you might have, you know, be working with a team in Munich, but then you're also working with a team in Paris and the UK and in Madrid all have very different personas, yeah, very different ways of working. So you have to be able to be agile to adjust and also accommodate for, like, their styles of working. So, yeah, I would say that it's definitely keeping in mind the cultural differences versus in North America it was more behavioral differences, versus here there's a deep rooted history. That kind of translates to the work ethic, the you know types of conversations. Again, business as usual, usually with the dark regions, you know, start those conversations early because it could take a long time. But yeah, I would say that just take into account that you can have a team. But even the diversity within the teams you have to take into account, depending on, maybe, like where, what their background is and kind of history with the organization.

Speaker 3:

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Speaker 2:

I loved having those conversations about extreme cultures in India, and especially with people who have been exposed to an American or North American culture previously, because very often we would be part of the theme of a North American headquarter company and it's all about like educating the headquarters about how we can go about things, how things work here, how we are doing experiments, about how we can go about things, how things work here, how we are doing experiments, because no matter what we want to do, there are probably five different variations of it, based on different countries and based on different regions and language and, as you said, so many little intrinsics that you have to take into account. Otherwise everything can just become a big stop. Really.

Speaker 1:

No, you hit the nail on the head. Deploying your software, let's say, in France, is very different from Germany. Those can have two-year differences between the same global contract. And just understanding, I guess, the optics, again, the ways of working, I think is something to consider. And it's multi-layered, right, because you also have your team I'm not, I'm just talking about clients but you also have your team members that are also multi-national. So how do you adjust as a leader to and understand that ways of working, helping everybody feel connected, despite you know, again, having different methods of attack when it comes to work or like how the customer engagements are? So I think it's, uh, it's been super valuable for me to be working in Europe for the last five years now.

Speaker 2:

I had one observation. When you've been describing your career journey, you mentioned a few names and they were mostly, I think, male names of people that seemed to be your bosses, the seniors, your steel level suite, but also you spoke of them in the context of almost being your sponsor or mentor, especially when you mentioned, against that, daniel Sanchez. Just tell me more about that. Am I imagining things, or did you really have like a good set of mentors that guided you throughout your career?

Speaker 2:

If it wasn't the case, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it was just something that I noticed, and it seems immediately like oh wow, like there are some good mentors going on, we can learn from them.

Speaker 1:

A hundred percent. I mean, I have been lucky that I've had so many people to look up to, but also a lot of female cheerleaders. Like again we mentioned Sydney. Like she's, you know, invaluable to what she's done to me on a personal level but also to my career. Like I still learn so much from her and she's always like again my safe space of like I'm trying to do this, what, what could go wrong. Um, but I also have, like Sarah Wood is also like a best friend but also great, you know, I got to her.

Speaker 1:

I would say that, like their Daniel Sanchez Grant probably is hits home a little bit, because he was really there when I became the lead I am today. I would say like I have led teams back in that first startup but you know, you kind of just figuring it out and you know kind of doing the thing. But I guess, again he was the one who told me about coaching to performance and just really again shaped me to be like let's amp this, let's supercharge it, and he always said, like you know, you have to make sure that, like the way that you do things are the way that your team's going to do things. So I would say that like I've been really lucky, both female and male. I just always bring up Daniel Santos guy because he was just maybe that person that made me kind of a leader that I am today. All of them did, but that was also like that actual time where I then became a leader. Oh, he also helped me in the first couple of months of transitioning into the leadership role at Envision.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, we have mentioned a few. I'll also mention, like Leah Shuback. Like I've never worked under her, we were peers but again, as I mentioned, she was a leader before. She was like she eventually took my role at Envision but I remember her and she'll probably laugh if she watches this, but she did this amazing deck of her book and I've never seen somebody know their book of business so well, be able to communicate it so concisely, and that will always forever stay with me. So she is one.

Speaker 1:

I would say that Sam Brennan's another one who works at Figma now he also would do like he made this Verizon interaction and like on site where he walked through something very creative out of the box. So the thing I took from Sam was like for certain customers, like you just can't do what's done, like you have to just take the leap of faith and do what's done. So I've been lucky across my career to, you know, be surrounded by so many people. That's inspired me, both male and female. So I would say, yeah, that's kind of like the summary of it.

Speaker 2:

No, that's really wonderful. You reminded me of one of my male leaders who was, I guess, my first leader, also when I was a people leader officially when I thought that you know, I wasn't ready or I was actually haven't done it before in that way and then he gave me complete trust in absolutely everything, which was huge responsibility, but also it was just awesome to have that idea Okay, somebody is really trusting you with every aspect of that department and of the function and of the region, and it was, I believe, the most empowering like mentoring relationship that I ever had, simply because I was just given trust and he believed in me before even I believed in myself as a leader. So, yeah, that's something that stays in your mind and it guides you throughout your career.

Speaker 1:

A hundred percent. Yeah, I feel like keeping those people are just invaluable like both, again, from a personal perspective, a professional perspective. So I would say, like, identify those people and keep them really close, for, you know, the rest of your life. I'm pretty like me, and another leader that I look up to so much is Brian Tino. We crashed Daniel Sanchez's honeymoon, like. That's how we were, like we are going to be a part of your life, whether you want us or not, like, and we were in Asia, and then me and Brian was visiting my family, because we're both best friends and we're like. I think DC's on his honeymoon Should we just check where he is and we really flew to Singapore for two nights just to hang out with him and his with his wife. So, again, it's just like just keep them close and, like you know, maybe that was a little bit too much, but we had a great time in Singapore, though, and it's a good memory.

Speaker 2:

I don't know what is close, what is too close, but it worked out well, right? Yes, exactly. What's one lesson that your career has taught you that you think everybody should learn at some point in their lives?

Speaker 1:

Oh gosh, one, the hard part. I mean I would say like maybe y'all have probably heard in the way that I've kind of described my career that have a direction that you're running towards, like, be very like reflective and self-aware. Because I do think that when you're hungry in your career at a young age, it's really easy to say yes to everything, like I'll say yes to this project, I'll be involved in this, I'll take that account, like this and this and this, but without let's say what you're working. If you don't have a clear vision of what you're working towards, then it could actually, it's always. Experience is always going to be good, but you can probably be strategic in which you spend your time on so you get one step closer to where you want to be.

Speaker 1:

Another great mentor Brian Thelm. He's also worked in the LinkedIn world. They create great leaders. By the way, my CEO right now is also from LinkedIn. He always told me when I was kind of at a pivotal point between actually going into a management role in North America or moving to EMEA point between actually going into a management role in North America or moving to EMEA and he said, steph, like, every time that you make a career decision should always be 50% mastery and 50% challenge.

Speaker 1:

So when you go into a new role, mastery like for me, I'll tell you exactly. I mean it kind of showed right throughout all of it. It's like I knew events. I went into an event app world but I didn't know the app world. And like I didn't know the software world and I knew how to kind of converse with people but I wanted enterprise contracts. Then I moved on to Envision because I wanted to work with you, know more account management, commercial style, but again, I already knew the CS motion as a foundation.

Speaker 1:

And then fast forward to Maze. I knew the persona, I knew how designers worked. You know I've worked with them for the last four years but I've never built anything, a department, from scratch. So again, always have that balance because you want to drive value when you first join that team, do your first role and that's where the 50% mastery come.

Speaker 1:

But you also want to be fueled with the challenge and the excitement of the unknown and that's where you grow right. So I would say, like, always, know what your master, like the mastery bucket, and the only way to do that is to be self-aware of, like what you know, you're good at, and a lot of people might think that's you know point of arrogance, but I think it's just building up your confidence so you know exactly where you want to go when the opportunity is presented to you, because the last thing you want to do is take on a role where you're not going to succeed. So be self-aware, always know, like, what you're working towards and also have the ability to be flexible. But I would always say, like, just make sure that you know kind of what you're running towards, because if you're not running towards something, then you can be derailed and burnt out and you know not get there as fast as you possibly can if you just give it a little bit of thought.

Speaker 2:

This is a really astonishing concept. Again, interestingly, it's coming from males 50% have your master's, but 50% being challenged. Immediate thoughts that came to my mind was the research that typically shows how women apply for a new role when they can pick most of the boxes of what is required from them. So very often even in start, before we we start or before we assume the new role, we go for the role that we are familiar with and that we know most of it. But I'm really intrigued hearing how you got this advice also, like 50% is enough, like just know 50% of it. Everything else should be the challenge, because that's how you can grow. I mean, it has absolute sense and amazing sense. It's an amazing career advice, yeah.

Speaker 1:

No, 100%. I would say, like when you go to like you mentioned, like you know, females typically almost always we know that we don't negotiate at all because maybe we go for the safe one You're like I can do this job, I can just start right away and I don't want to jeopardize it. I'll bring a female example, Mona Trubelsky. She now leaves account management at Atlassian. Actually, I worked with her at every single company until this last one. So again, it's like kind of phenomenal. If you haven't had her in the podcast, definitely have her on the podcast.

Speaker 1:

But she was, I guess, the mentor and peer and friend. That was also the one that got me over the fear of like, asking for what you're worth. And I remember she told me one, you're good. Two, you'll never lose a job that's meant for you because you asked for too much money. They will always come back to you and say, that's a little out of our band, what can we do? But if you have that standard and you know your value and again, that's where the self-awareness and self-reflection happens then if they don't realize that, then it's probably not the job that you want to take anyway. So ask for what you need and like what you deserve and don't back down.

Speaker 1:

And I think that's another takeaway that I would give to especially females, which is like you'll never not get a job because you ask for too much money. You know you will, they will. We've done this. We will fight tooth and nail to meet you somewhere in the middle. Throw different add-ons or whatever, more equity or something like that in order for you to be signed. So don't have that fear. That's like oh, I'm asking for too much, but it's like you're not. If you know how much value you're going to drive for that company, they need you more than you need them. Always have that in mind and be really confident and have your ground and I would make sure that, like Mona Travolsi gets that acknowledgement, because she helped me kind of shape my thinking around that.

Speaker 2:

I love that we are having this conversation. I do think that all the women have to hear that what you word very often we see that women sometimes are not aware what their word. And once I got the advice if you're not sure what's your market price or what you should be getting with your experience and skill set, ask your male peers. Just ask how much are they getting in the same level of job? And I always share one example when I used to hire people and had loads of interviews, I remember conversations with female candidates about you know what is the expected salary? And very often they would tell me a number and I was very honest and I says you know what, you're male, only they're asking for so much more. You should just be asking for more. And in those cases like it wasn't even the case that we hired a person, I just said as a piece of advice as a woman to woman please start asking for more in your other interviews, simply because you are learning.

Speaker 2:

Everybody else at your level are earning higher and I believe that's like the little thing that we all as women, especially as leaders, can do just give a little bit of a nudge when we are understanding that from people around us are not aware of their work yeah and to your point, like I love that you did that, because nobody teaches you these things.

Speaker 1:

like everybody hates talking about money, like everybody does, no matter what context, and yeah, like, I would say, like, yeah, find the Mona and again, be be open about like you don't have to disclose everything, but again, there are the tools online to show you bands of you know of, like what somebody is making on Glassdoor, like, just yeah, ask for what you're worth.

Speaker 1:

And I do think that I think, as an industry, we have to do better in terms of, like, creating the scales and the coaching that you know. Females need to ask for what they're worth Because, unfortunately, there is a lot of times where we are taken advantage of because we know that our male counterparts are making more money, but I do think that it's getting better. However, I think, yeah, we just need to do it as leaders to be able to also coach to your point with what you did for that candidate, as leaders, to be able to also coach to your point with what you did for um, for that candidate, like you know, ask for more money and just do your research, because you're underselling what you could, what you could drive yes and for everybody listening, all the ladies yes, please ask for more.

Speaker 2:

Uh, and negotiate it is. I know it's easy to say, oh, just negotiate, but no one expects you to accept the first offer as well. Like you will know stuff as a leader, when you give somebody an offer, you do expect them to come back with anything Like it could be either more money or something else, but you don't expect them to say yes immediately, which have been too easy. Like you also want to see how they would be in their commercial roles and responsibilities, like how they would Tackle those situations.

Speaker 1:

A hundred percent and, again, like, you are selling yourself.

Speaker 1:

So in order for you to be able to do that, know your worth, be self-aware, think about how many millions you've saved for the last company, how much millions you've driven for the company, how many projects have moved like you know, quantify, or at least have that sense.

Speaker 1:

Because if you think of, you know, even retaining a three what's the average, like maybe $2.5 million book and you got, you know, 90% of that, you're saving millions for a company at that point. So if they're going to pay you hundreds of thousands or whatever that mark is, it's not really that much. But you have to kind of think in parallel to what you've driven so that again, you feel confident that when you go on to that call with a recruiter, hiring manager, whoever that is, you're selling yourself. So in order for you to do that, you have to know what you're selling, which is yourself, and what you've been able to do and what you can bring to the table. So I would say that it's a combination of a lot of it, but you have to set aside some time to reflect on everything that you've also accomplished to be able to sell it.

Speaker 2:

That's a wonderful advice how to provide the evidence for your work. Yes, this has been a wonderful, wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your story, your experiences. There are so many career lessons and little nuggets, and I would like to wrap up with this. If you could build your career all over again, is there anything you would change?

Speaker 1:

No, I don't think so. I mean, I'm thinking like the only thing I think of is maybe joining Zoom at the time of the pandemic, but that's probably it. But like, at the end of the day, like I'm where I'm supposed to be right now and again, as I mentioned, I can plot back from, like my very first job at university at cold calling alumni's for money to where I'm at right now. And yeah, I think I'm here and I know that I'm meant to be here, so I wouldn't change anything for the world.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic, If you could be remembered for one thing. What would it be? What would it?

Speaker 1:

be. Remember one thing in my professional career Like one, I guess I would just love to be remembered as somebody who you enjoyed working with, both fun but also challenging. And yeah, I would say like I want to be able to help people, regardless if that's my client or my team or my company. I just want to be the person that helped and made you feel good.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for sharing that and with so many names that you mentioned today, I'm sure that that's exactly what they would tell about you.

Speaker 1:

Just give me a whole list for your future podcast. But they're all phenomenal people and I'm so sorry for not mentioning like half the other people. That's like kind of shape near, but yeah, no, it's. You can't do it alone. Again, if you want to go far, go together. Right, that whole saying if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. So just really identify those people in your lives that help you move forward and get those nuggets Like I just dropped. Like those nuggets have always stayed with me throughout the rest of my career and I also kind of share that with anybody that I kind of interact with. So, yeah, thanks so much for having me. It's been such a good conversation.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you, seth. Where's the best place for people to find you online? Is it LinkedIn? Yeah?

Speaker 1:

LinkedIn is probably the best way to message and, again, love like connecting with any type of leader. Like, again, I still live in the customer org at Maze more on the commercial side now, but again another challenge that I'm hoping to take off. But yeah, linkedin is the best and let's have a chat. Anything about CS, anything about customers, anything about teams, anything about hiring, teams in France versus in the UK versus in North America Love to chat with all of you. So thanks, so much. Thanks for coming to the show.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for listening to today's episode. I really appreciate you taking time to learn something new and propel your career in customer success and beyond. If you like this episode, share it with your colleague, with your team member, with someone you know needs to hear it. Today we appreciate your support, so please follow us and subscribe to our channels so many more women can hear about this.